Experts Get Hired to Simplify Complex Data – Kurt London with London Harker Injury Law

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Ted: [00:00:00] Kurt, thank you so much for being part of this. Uh, it really means a lot to me. it means a lot to the experts. and just to give you a quick recap, I help experts with their web design and SEO and a lot of them have questions about what attorneys actually look for them. In general, as an expert witness, and in this case, what attorneys look for them when they’re looking at their online presence.

So that’s gonna be the general topic about marketing for expert witnesses.

Feel free to, take a few minutes to talk about you, your injury law firm, and how people can reach out to you as well.

Kurt: Yeah, sounds good. So I’m Kurt London. I own London Harker Injury Law. We cover the states of Montana, Utah, Arizona, California, Nevada. We are. Headquartered and mainly work in, uh, Utah. That’s where majority of our clients come from. We handle all sorts of accidents, not just auto accidents, you know, slip and falls, shootings, assaults, mold cases, carbon [00:01:00] monoxide, basically anything and everything where an injury is involved and someone is at fault, we will help out.

Most injury attorneys like to stick around auto accidents, and we do a whole bunch. That’s why we do a lot of expert work because of all that. Easiest way to find me is actually on LinkedIn. That’s probably where I’m the most active. Kurt London on LinkedIn. Or you can go to our website, LondonHarker.com, that has all of our contact information, email address, phone numbers.

Yeah, feel free to reach out.

Ted: Awesome. Thank you Kurt.

Kurt: Yeah, sounds good.

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Ted: something I’ve been curious about,in your own words is, just like how someone goes to the doctor to relieve their pain. What would you say it’s the main. problem that expert witnesses solve when you go and try and find one.

Kurt: You mean, why do we wanna hire him to help

Ted: Yeah.

Kurt: Because they offer simplicity. so they take a very difficult question. [00:02:00] Or topic and they can do a lot more research and get a better deeper dive and synthesize that data and information that we need into a legal answer for our questions that we have.

so they basically help us compile a bunch of our data and give us the answers, yes or no on, you know, a certain variety of topics. So they basically offer just simplicity for us, which is why we need them.

Ted: they do a lot of complex things, but it’s interesting to hear that at the end of the day, what they offer is simplicity for

Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: When you’re looking at the expert, and you’re looking at their cv, it’s my understanding that’s one of the first things you look at.

Do you wanna see what do you wanna see at the top of that cv? The case studies, their training, their education, a photo of them. what would that be?

Kurt: usually the training and education, kinda like a resume, right? Just like a plain resume. And then, a list of their cases that they’ve been involved in afterwards or their case studies. And then maybe a [00:03:00] photo, photo is not as important. Cases are important, but I really want to just see in their current experience and education, if they’d need me a good fit for what I’m looking for before I do a deeper dive into the cases and stuff that they’ve been involved in.

Ted: that’s interesting because, another attorney had told me that they wanna see the case studies, but I guess it always changes.

Kurt: When you ask an attorney a question, you’re gonna get 27 different opinions. I mean that, information is great, but I also wanna make sure before I invest any more time into researching my experts to see if they’re who I need. I really just wanna see from a 30,000 foot view whether or not they’re gonna be a good fit before I go into the weeds and look at the cases and case studies and things like that.

So just a glance, just at a normal resume, their education experience, what they’re working on now before going into the cases they’ve been involved in and case studies they’ve been involved in.

Ted: Yeah. Okay. And just curious,do you ever check on their actual education and see if maybe they faked,a degree from a university or something like [00:04:00] that?

Kurt: I haven’t done a deep dive into their prior education, but if they work at a. college or something,I’ll go on the college websites to make sure that they’re actually listed as a faculty member or, adjunct professor, something like that. But I won’t reach out to a college to make sure that they graduated from there 40 years ago or anything.

Ted: Oh, Okay. And then in the digital world, there’s a lot of lead magnets and newsletters that every business tries to do for the experts. now I have a better idea with what you told me about simplicity. But if you were to go onto an expert’s website that you’re looking to hire.

Kurt: What would be something that they offered that you would, outside of wanting to contact them, of course, what would be something that they could offer that would make you wanna exchange your email information for that? Like a white paper, their cv, Yeah, I mean, CV’s a really good one.it’s always good to have those on file. maybe a PDF [00:05:00] version of their most recent publication or documents, like a book or maybe a article of some kind they published. those are the two things that come top to mind. That would interest me the most to give up my information to put on a newsletter or, um, if they’ve got some kind of, maybe even a transcript of their most recent trial, that’d be kind of interesting to have or deposition.

That’d be interesting to have as well if they’re willing to give up and they can give that up.

Ted: Well, some kind of document that kind of gives me an insight about,who they are as an expert and what they can provide. that’s as an attorney, that’s what would prompt me to be more involved and want to get on their list and things like that.

And then if you said publication first, so I would assume that publications would take top priority over their cvs or case studies

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Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: that.

Kurt: At least for me that’s the most interesting is what they publish the most or most recent. That kind of gives you a better idea of their expertise, what they’re involved in, what they’re researching, what they’re geeking out on [00:06:00] currently.

Ted: Okay. that makes sense, right? Because then if they,have a publication on X topic and you’re looking for Y topic, then that would probably tell you that this is what they’re focusing on right now.

Kurt: Exactly.

Ted: Okay. So then on the flip side of that, would you say that maybe that could in a way hurt them as well, if maybe it’s not the exact thing you’re looking for?

Kurt: Oh, that’s always the question, right? it depends on the field. Yeah. I guess it could exclude some people being involved or want to wanna reach out if that topic’s not exactly what they’re looking for. Not broad enough. but I don’t know if they’re not the right fit, then that attorney would find out at some point anyways, so I can go either way on that. That’s a good question.

Ted: Oh, okay. That’s true. A lot of experts just have their directory profiles [00:07:00] on, you name it, right? Seak, Juris Pro, Experts.com.and there’s plenty more. Do you as an attorney, if you ever find an expert in a directory, do you like it when they have a website? Oh yeah, that’s the first thing I do.

Ted: So I want to go to their actual website to see what services they provide, their contact information, what their office is who else is in that office? What they advertise themselves as to doing and what services they’re providing. That’s literally the very first thing that I do when I get an expert’s name is I Google ’em to find a website.

Oh, That’s really cool. And then if they don’t have a website, would that deter you from.

Kurt: Yeah, just makes it harder as an attorney to find out who they are. You have to make it really easy. Attorneys, our trade craft is time, right? So if we have to spend more time trying to find out who you are, it’s gonna [00:08:00] be, not as enticing or as easy for us to be involved and reach out for someone to be involved rather than someone who’s got a nicely laid out website that has, everything they’ve been involved in, their kind of cv, their office stats, just things like that.

So nice. Website definitely helps for sure.

Ted: Oh, okay. Well that’s really amazing to hear.

Yeah, and you weren’t paying me to say that either. So time is money for us, so you gotta make it easy. So if you make it easy, I think you make it a lot easier for us to hire you as an expert, Yeah, it is a practice at the end of the day.

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Kurt: For sure. Yeah.

Ted: Awesome. and then something an attorney mentioned one time is that, to give you a little backstory, it’s my understanding that sometimes. Attorneys try to make an expert look bad and right. If it’s not done eloquently, then the attorney itself just looks like a jerk.

so [00:09:00] they mentioned that the expert can also do that, and same thing, if it’s not done eloquently, would just make the expert look like a jerk. So what are some good techniques that you go over with your experts so that when they are answering your questions right,they make you look like a rockstar.

And when the opposition is asking them questions, they can make them look not like a rockstar, but without being annoying, right? oh, can you repeat that question again? Can you say it differently?

Kurt: Yeah, that’s a big part of being in trial is how likable if you are with a jury sometimes. So I try to find experts that present well anyways, so I don’t have to do too much prep on that. But just tell them to be straightforward, answer to the best of their knowledge. Don’t be combative.

I don’t like to play games like that with my experts. you don’t want to accidentally. overstep and make the jury not like you or your expert by [00:10:00] being too combative or by trying to poo the other side too much. So I just tell ’em to be confident, respond when they can refer to their data and let the jury decide from there.

So the job of the expert is to synthesize the facts down into a palatable, format for the jury and judge to understand it’s not really to make the other expert look dumb. I just feel like there’s too many landmines with that kind of approach. I know I’ve seen it done before, and I just think people can see through that kind of approach too easily.

So I just tell ’em to be straightforward. Prepare well for the case, review the report, stick to the data, answer the questions ask for clarifying questions when they can.

Ted: so it goes back to, because I know experts, they cannot say that. I’m gonna help you win a case, right? I have to remain neutral and all that. You as an attorney,you are gonna hire the expert because he is gonna help you support and [00:11:00] provide facts, but at the end of the day, you want so that you can win your case, right?

Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: Okay. So then if you hire them naturally, the questions that the opposition makes, I probably just. It’s gonna be the, to try and make him look bad, but nothing concrete.

Kurt: Yeah, I mean usually the tactic that both sides take is they just say that the other one’s a hired gun, right? So they’re making X amount of money just so they’ll basically, the assumption is, or presumption is that the expert will say whatever that person hiring them will do. And there’s no way around that.

But the experts I work with, I want them to be honest with me. So if I don’t have a case or there’s weak points, I definitely want ’em to tell me. we can help address it and explain it, but definitely don’t lie and make stuff up and just be a people pleaser, you know?

because part of it’s to educate me as well, some of the stuff is way over my head.

I’m not a scientist, so they need to be honest with me about my chances on a case and things like that as well.

Ted: It’s even, pre litigation as [00:12:00] well, like before. Because you would hire an expert also before it even goes to trial, right?

Kurt: Yeah. We hire experts a lot, even before litigation’s filed, because I wanna make sure if I’m getting into litigation, I know exactly what I’m getting into and I want to have my experts lined up already so that we can keep pushing for trial because we’re already ready. But I’ve had it too where I hire an expert and they’re like, you have no case.

And I’m like, okay, now we can’t litigate because like I have no case, but at least I know now, rather than being in litigation and hiring an expert and be like, oh no, now we’re two years in and we just found out we have no case.

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Ted: Has that ever happened?

Kurt: Oh yeah. I’ve had it on a recent premises liability case. I’ve had it on a coffee spill case. I’ve had it on a few where. They review everything,no. You have no case here. This isn’t there is no liability or this couldn’t have caused those injuries. There’s no way. glad I know now, so we’ll withdraw.

Ted: Yeah. Oh, Okay. Gives you enough time to withdraw from that.

Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: Okay. just curious, [00:13:00] have you heard of the. McDonald’s coffee spill case because I know a lot of people make fun of it, but it’s not, someone told me that it was actually a very serious case, right? Like the person got really injured, they spilled that.

Was there, expert witnesses involved in that?

Kurt: Yep. So that’s why I had a coffee spill case in Montana and That was whole. The whole problem too is everyone’s heard about the McDonald’s case, so you had to make sure that your coffee spill case was absolutely solid. ’cause the judge and jury is gonna think about the McDonald’s case. ’cause the insurance made it sound like it was a minor accident and she got this huge windfall but her.

Ted: Burns were pretty serious and severe. And she also got punitive damages too. ’cause McDonald’s wasn’t doing some of the things that they were claiming they were doing. So some of the money she got wasn’t even because of her injuries. It was ’cause the punitive damages to punish McDonald’s. Yeah.

Kurt: yeah, I’ve only had a few coffee burn cases and that comes up every single

Ted: In all of them, right? It’s [00:14:00] such a famous case.

Kurt: Yeah, exactly.

Ted: That’s funny. and then, which kind of reminds me too, as well, when I was in college, every college student had this joke of I’m just gonna run in front of a car and get paid for my college tuition.

Kurt: Yeah, you got student loans to pay off,

Ted: Yeah. I’m like, that wouldn’t happen, right?

it has to be a legit case.

Kurt: Oh yeah.

Ted: you run in front of a car, it’s not gonna.

Kurt: I mean it, it depends on your jurisdiction. in Utah that would not work at all because you have to be 49% or less at fault. You running in front of a car is gonna prohibit from that. But some states they have what’s called pure contributory negligence where, even if you’re like 1% not at fault, so you’re 99% at fault, you could still get a payout.

Ted: Oh wow.

Kurt: So it would be reduced, but you could still have a settlement. But yeah, you can’t just like fabricate an accident most of the time and hope for a settlement or payout. fortunately and unfortunately, right? [00:15:00] Like you, you shouldn’t want to ruin your health to get a payout from the insurance.

It’s not fun anyways.

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Ted: No, definitely not. They should really tell that to some students.

Kurt: I’ve got law school loans. I’ve thought about it, right?

Ted: Yeah. something also I’ve been curious about is I know some experts, they start doing expert witness work, after they retire. and it sounds like that is really the only reason why they do it. They’re like, oh, I retired, so now I’m just gonna do some expert witness work and still get some money in. Does that ever become an issue at trial, like when they’re trying to figure out if he’s a hired gun?

Kurt: my only hesitation with someone who is retired and wants to become an expert on the side is to make sure that they keep up with the standard and modern literature in their field. So as long as they’re doing research, still, they’re being active in the academia of their field. It’s not too big of an issue.

The issue [00:16:00] is where they’re not keeping up with it and their knowledge and experience is 10 years outdated, that’s when you’re gonna have a big issue. it’s not necessarily, I don’t think them being retired or not is gonna play too much of a role of them being viewed as like a hired gun.

I think they’re gonna be viewed that way anyways, but it’s more of them having to be involved in their field still despite them being retired.

Ted: And then it goes back to what you said about you wanted to see their training and education. if they have continuing or continual education, it would be good if they put that on their resume as well.

Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: Something that I have been curious about is if there is an expert that is still active in their field, is it beneficial if you see that they have a website for their expert witness practice and then an actual business website?

So two, I don’t think it matters too much as long as your website [00:17:00] adequately provides information about exactly what you do, what fields you’re interested in and provide, and what services you can provide, if that’s also on your business website. That’s great. If it’s not, then you probably should have a second website just for your, expert work.

Kurt: Um, but a lot of experts, like for instance, will hire people from like universities to opine on one topic or the other. Like the university website usually has a fair amount of information where you can find their information and also determine kind of what area that they actually do and what they’re involved in with their literature and publications and such.

Ted: So if there’s not enough information, you probably should have your own. If there is enough information, probably works Gotcha.

Kurt: but yeah, it really depends.

and then at the end of the day, just wanna make sure that they are an expert in their field. Yeah.

Ted: long as they do that, it should be,

Kurt: and the website’s gotta be good enough where you can find ’em too, So yeah, that’s important.

Ted: Kurt, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today. At the end, feel free [00:18:00] to, take a few minutes to talk about you, your law firm, who you help specifically, in case you know there might be a potential client for you in the audience, and how they can reach out to you as well.

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Kurt: Yeah, sounds good. So I’m Kurt London. I own London Harker Injury Law. We cover the states of Montana, Utah, Arizona, California, Nevada. We are. Headquartered and mainly work in, uh, Utah. That’s where majority of our clients come from. We handle all sorts of accidents, not just auto accidents, you know, slip and falls, shootings, assaults, mold cases, carbon monoxide, um, basically anything and everything where an injury is involved and someone is at fault, we will help out.

Most injury attorneys like to stick around auto accidents, and we do a whole bunch. we do a lot of expert work because of all that. Um, easiest way to find me is actually on LinkedIn. That’s probably where I’m, I’m the most active. Kurt London on LinkedIn. Or you can go to our website, LondonHarker.com that has all of our contact information, email address, phone numbers.[00:19:00]

Yeah, feel free to reach out.

Ted: Awesome. Thank you so much. I’m outside the podcast episode. this should be posted in about a month from now. I have a few episodes. To be scheduled for the next few weeks, and then I’ll try and look for a photo of you. But if you have one or if you don’t have one, I post a thumbnail that shows like your upper body half, in it.

So if you have a photo that you’d prefer to use, feel free to send it to me.

Kurt: rather than just a headshot.

Ted: Yeah. Rather than just a headshot, like a little bit, from the waist up.

Kurt: Okay. I’ll try to find one. I’m pretty sure we have some.

Ted: Okay. Awesome. and then,just curious for myself, do you know if, ’cause one time someone asked me if I was an expert witness myself and then I had to explain them, right? but do you think there’s any expert witness work for, for web design and search engine optimization?

Kurt: [00:20:00] I mean, there would be, uh, what kind of case that would derive from as. I’m not exactly sure. that would be more like trade violations. I mean, definitely not personal injury. yeah, you definitely could. It just, the area of law that someone would need that it’s kind of different than most.

is different, right, Because it’s my understanding that also. So, you know, experts, they charge a lot of money. a lot.

Ted: yeah, when there’s a case involved, it’s usually like a hundred thousand or more.

Kurt: Yeah.

Ted: for website related stuff,I know there’s a lot of scams going on and things like that, but usually it’s all under 10,000.

About 7,000, which is not even like small claims court. So even though it’s a lot of money for someone, it’s not like litigation

Kurt: Yeah. No,

type thing. even to get like initial expert report usually costs $5,000 and that’s the initial [00:21:00] report without anything else. Then it just goes up from there.

Ted: Oh, wow.

Kurt: So yeah, it gets expensive pretty quick.

Ted: Yeah. Okay. I’ll follow up through email, but Kurt, thank you so much man. I really appreciate.

Kurt: yeah, problem then. And lemme know, and I’ll repost it on my socials and stuff too.

Ted: Yeah, definitely. We’ll let you know.

Kurt: All right.

Ted: Bye Kurt.

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